FFVII's Cloud Strife...man, or mako?

[Phoenix Flame]

Ok, so it's abundantly clear during the storyline of FFVII that Cloude is...how can we say this...? He's not really him, right? The story goes that he was "constructed by Hojo piece by piece" after the Mt. Nibelheim incident. And through the abilities afforded him by Jenova's cells, he was able to conjure up memories from Tifa and their childhood.
But something troubles me about these statements...

We know he was severly injured by being run through by Sephy's sword in the reactor, and he was taken by the Shin-Ra for experimentation and, er - reconstruction right? So is he a shell - anotherwords, is his body an empty vessel and Jenova through the will of Sephiroth is the puppeteer? I've been confused on this point for a while now ya know??? How do you guys take it? And if he is, how come he comes around and defeats Sephiroth? Does he negate Sephiroth's control, and if so, when and how does he do it. I thought this was a very involved question and would appreciate your collected viewpoints. Thanks.

[Gumdrop]

Because the Jenova cells and his feelings towards Sephiroth he feels drawn to the reunion but I don't think he can be controlled, hes not a puppet/clone he just gets mistaken for one, you find that out in that bit when Tifa is in his head.

Thats how i see it.

[gcarev10]

genetic modification between mako and jeniva cells and sefirot that what hi is.

[wimsi]

my point of view:
cloud left his home to become a member of soldier., but he wasn't able to do so. but he came to the army. there he met zack and they became good friends. zack became an idol fot cloud.
when they had to go to nibelheim, clod felt ashamed that he couldn't become a SOLDIER, so he hided his face.
when he was hurt through seph, hojo found him in the reactor and took him to the shinra-villa to make some experiments with him and zack.
a few years after that, they escaped and zack was shot. cloud was still a little bit unconcious at this time. somehow he managed it to get to midgar where tifa found him.
i think, it was his clothes and his wish to become a soldier what made him believe, he was really a soldier. somehow he mixed his own past with zacks and made up this weird story.

and i really think, that he was somehow infected by jenova, that's the reason why it could controll him.
but what about geostigma? vincent said, its somehow caused by the jenova-cells. so why didn't he get this illnes earlier????

[Phoenix Flame]

Good question Wimsi...But no one got geostigma until later evidently. I'm trying to pick the storyline apart to better understand a great classic. Would appreciate any fan's thoughts/views.

[Phoenix Flame]

Does anyone else have any views on Cloud...?

==========SPOILERS===========


I'm leaning more towards Cloud being originally human, near-death after the Nibelheim incident, then reconstructed (something like what happened to Vincent) by Hojo and infused with Jenova cells...however, a couple of things don't add up.

All the other characters in the story who were infected w/Jenova cells either went crazy or survived to be uber-tough to kill (Sephy, Hojo.)

Another thing...what the hell is going on with the OTHER Cloud? (You know, the young Cloud who runs around when Cloud looses it...i.e. when he gives the Black Materia to Sephiroth.) Is this like separate personalities or something because I can see that if Jenova is controlling him...

[Phoenix Flame]

Another question...is it ok to double post after a few months to get your question anwered? Cause I was really curious about that last one. :-)

[Zeromus_X]

Yes, go ahead. (Of course if it's been months. xD)

Although to answer your question, I'm pretty sure that you're spot on. Of course, Cloud went into a catatonic state after the experiments, and that was when Zack was helping him around. (Until they got shot at...and you know the rest.) Then Tifa finds him, and then a week later the events of the game fold out, etc.

It's probably just his childhood self or something? Well, that would be something up to interpretation. (Unless it wasn't translated well enough, or something.) Although it's probably just his concience.

[murza]

the way i see it is that when cloud found about the truth no-body had control of him, maybe the jenova cell got killed? lol

i mean he was a failed experiment of hojo and before the northen crater he was living a lie and now he found out the truth maybe that changed everything

but then if u ask me man or mako i would say both? his body is probaly made out of mako, but then his memories and personality is man? lol i think this makes sense

[Phoenix Flame]

^ hmmm... an interesting theory, but something doesn't add up to boot. What about Geostigma? If the Jenova cells were killed-off (or whatever) he wouldn't have it necessarily. So I guess that does away with that.

He does say "I was showered by mako" but I remember him saying that before knowing the truth. I think we need Shadowheart's incredible mind in on this one...

What do you say? Both Man, AND Mako, or one/other?

Thinking about this actually gives me a headache. Failed experiment - yes. Weak personality put him in a catatonic state. I think I see a little clearer...

[Zeromus_X]

If you haven't seen the one-episode anime 'Before Crisis' (I believe it's called), you should, reason. It goes over the Nibelheim incident, albeit changing some minor details. I just thought it'd be informative. (You can probably find it on Google video or YouTube, no doubt.)

I believe the order of events went like this (CIW):

-Cloud applies for Soldier. Doesn't make the cut. Becomes ShinRa lacky.
-Cloud gets mixed up in Nibelheim incident. Sephy scene.
-Cloud gets captured by Hojo, becomes lab rat momentarily.
-Escapes with Zack. Get shot at. Cloud escapes. Goes to Midgar, and meets with Tifa.
-Game plays out.

CIW, of course.

[Tiny Bronco]

BIG SPIOLERS!!!

As for views on Cloud I don't have any. I just know the facts.

1. Cloud is a real human born in Niblihen.
2. At 15 years old he tried to become a member of SOLDIER, but didn't make it instead becoming a MP(Military Police).
3. Cloud was assigned to guard Sephiroth and Zack on the Niblihen Reactor mission.
4. In the flashbacks it shows Cloud in Zacks place, but Cloud is really in Shinra Uniform.
5. Sephiroth finds out his past and attacks Nibinhen.
6. Zack runs out of the Shinra Mansion to see if anyone is alive. He see Cloud(already hurt by Sephiroth on the ground and helps him up. Tifa's trainer is also still alive and so is Tifa.
7. The only survivers of the attack are Tifa, Cloud, Zack, and Zingray(Tifa's trainer). Sephiorth is in the Reactor to get Jenova. NOTE: This is the real Sephiroth that eventually becomes sealed inside a giant Mako Crystal in the North Crater.
8. At the Reactor Tifa finds her father dead and in a rage attacks Sephiroth and is cut up.
9. Zack trys to stop Sephiroth too, but is also wounded.
10. Cloud(in the Shinra Uniform) arrives late and finds Tifa/helps her. Zack is dying and gives Cloud the Buster Sword saying "Cloud......kill Sephiroth."
11. Cloud, his home town destroyed and beleiving Tifa will die, attacks Sephiroth and stabbs him.
12. While this is happening Zagary(Tifa's trainer) comes into the reactor and takes Tifa away to Midgar.
13. Cloud leaves to see if Zack and Tifa are still alive.(Tifa is missing) Sephiroth comes out of Jenova's room carrying her head and walks strait past Cloud. Cloud very very angry now that he thinks Zack will die on top of everything else runs after Sephiroth.
14. Sephiroth turns around spearing Cloud with the Masamune and says"Don't push your luck." He then lifts Cloud off tthe ground with the Masamune.
15. Cloud shakes still alive and grabs hold of the Masamune while it is still in him and uses it to throw Sephiroth (who has Jenova's head) into the life stream. Note: This is while Cloud is still just a normal human with no Jenova Cells or Mako in him.
16. Then Cloud faints. Hojo arrives and finds Cloud and Zack wounded. He beleives Sephiroth is dead.
17. Hojo is amazed that Sephiroth could be killed so easily and decideds to do experiments on Zack and Cloud.
18. In the Shinra Mansion Cloud and Zack are fused with Mako and Jenova Cells.
This is why Hojo says he "created Cloud."
19. Cloud reacts to the Mako and Jenova Cells in him and becomes all messed up.
Zack however doesn't react and so he is still sain and in control of himself.
20. Zack brakes himself and Cloud out of the Shinra Mansion and heads for Midgar.
21. Shinra SOLDIERs and Turks are sent to capture Zack and Cloud. They find them outside of Midgar and try to capture them, but Zack fights and kills them. Finally they give up and decide to kill instead of capture. Zack is shot up. Cloud is sparred because he is already messed up from the Jenova Cells and Mako and so the Shinra beleive he will die anyways.
22. Somehow Cloud survives the Jenova Cells and Mako and then regains control of himself. He only has amnisiea even though he should be dead.
23. Taking the Buster Sword he enters Midgar and there he finds Tifa and the events of FF7 begin. Cloud is confused though and can't remember all of these facts and has to rediscover his past throughout the game.

Congratulations if you read all of that. This information can be found in a Flashback FMV that can be seen if you go to the Shinra Mansion's lab in Disc. 3, in a letter you find when you recieve Tifa's Level 4 Limit Break, and in the Life Stream that you enter in Mideel. +Throughout the game.

I think thats most of it.

[murza]

nice story line i little detail

7. The only survivers of the attack are Tifa, Cloud, Zack, and Zingray(Tifa's trainer). Sephiorth is in the Reactor to get Jenova. NOTE: This is the real Sephiroth that eventually becomes sealed inside a giant

that sepiroth is a clone, since hojo told rufus at the northen crater that he cloned sepiroth when he found out he died

[Zeromus_X]

Tifa's sensei is Zangan. (Just a nitpick.)

The Sephy in Nibelheim is the real one. He falls into the Lifestream and makes his way to the Norther Crater (As we see in the game after Cloud somehow incapacitates him) and to his nice crystalline home, where he projects the images of himself through the other clones.

[Phoenix Flame]

Another nitpick...Tifa was not taken by Zangan yet after Cloud slashes Sephy - we know this because of the sceen where he comes out and picks up Tifa and moves her to safety, she says "I knew you would come..." and passes out. Sephy walks out of the reactor room carrying Jenova's head (Why he cut off her friggen head, I dunno...but alas, he does get tossed into the lifestream by Cloud. Also, Sephy WAS cloned...but those are all the guys with xii and Viii and other numbers (most of them give you items before dying) with black capes. They are all failed experiments.
SPOILER!!!!!
The thing which is confusing is that Hojo does say he "Created" Cloud. But more than that - at the northern crater, he asks Cloud where his number is, and seeing he doesn't have one, give the "Shut up, stupid failure" speech, sending Cloud off to deliver the Black materia to Sephy. That, on top of the already difficult-to-follow storyline is what hurts my head

Oh and Zeromus_X I LOVE the new avatar! Lavos - the enemy of an entire planet. That game rocked!