Likes and dislike about VIII

[Slider]

Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

Not even the things that everyone else has listed and are more or less unanimously consider by even die-hard FFVIII fans to be legitimate flaws?

You brought it to yourself, let's see........

Your own dislikes: - Storyline : I already love it, yours is no more than personnal oppinion, it made it best to me to be united after destiny had seperated the characters in so many diffrent ways to many diffrent places and gardens how can you dislike that?
-Vasy Majority of characters: That's something you can hate???????? maybe if they were too much but they weren't and they weren't too small in number either giving you MORE options thaat's an advantage and I don't understand why you dislike it????
- Disc 4: I agree that Disc 4 didn't take time as much as the others but it was AWESOME (you can regret that like me but not hate it coz that indicates you wanted even MORE put in the game, it may sound unreasonnable but that's how I feel) also it included so many diffrent monsters if you think about it it probably had the BIGGEST variety of monsters and enemies
- Seifer : You're just mocking it, how about from mislead dream or brainwashed Seifer to the one who found piece of mind or the one regretting passing the age restriction of the SeeD exam and never becoming one?

Dachink:
- Laguna: Personnal oppinion, can't help him
- Storyline: Same.
- Chocobos: Yeah, it's true they didn't give too much significance to the chocobos this time but then again I never really cared
- DoomTrain: It's a Status changing GF Summon, his damage and abilities were good too!

SephirogaUltimecia:
-Malboro: Personnal oppinion, I know they're hard to beat but unlike some people I take it as a challenge more than hate it.

dappa:
Money: Welcome to reality, you can take a defeated enemie's Item (i.e. Malboro Tentacles, and so on) a mutated monster living in the outback doesn't walk around with a bag of gold. These are M-O-N-S-T-E-R-S not Leprechauns.

ultimecia:
Magic: Unlike materia the use of para-magic is more R-E-A-L-I-S-T-I-C as for the number limit ,at least it shows that anyone has a LIMIT of magic summoning, but like you I'm REAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYY looking forward for another part of the game.

heavens cloud:
Card Rules: Another personnal oppinion, I like the mind challenging varieties because otherwise it would've been a REEEAALL boring task to collect the card

Any other oppinions I left are either repeated or are just personnal oppinion with no explanations. Maybe I'm not the biggest fan, but I still don't dislike anthing about naturally!

[ThroneofDravaris]

Originally Posted by Slider

Storyline : I already love it, yours is no more than personnal oppinion, it made it best to me to be united after destiny had seperated the characters in so many diffrent ways to many diffrent places and gardens how can you dislike that?

If it had been handled well it may have been tolerable but “we all grew up together and then just kinda forgot about it due to Deus Ex Machina plot point ‘A’” is not the making of a great story.

Originally Posted by Slider

-Vasy Majority of characters: That's something you can hate???????? maybe if they were too much but they weren't and they weren't too small in number either giving you MORE options thaat's an advantage and I don't understand why you dislike it????

Most of the characters receive almost no character development, some of them to the point where they are more like ‘avatars’ then they are characters. Most of the characters have one characteristic to define them, with all their actions within the game being based on that one characteristic. Zell and Selphie fall into this category. Beyond the stereotypical achetype that they portray, there isn’t anything to them. Then there are characters like Quistis and Irvine who look like they are going to receive some decent development but then virtually fall into a role of unimportance after the first disk. This is particularly noticeable for Quistis, who the characters clearly initially intended to be a love interest for Squall to compete with Rinoa. After the first disk however, any mention of these feelings is completely void up until one of the last moments in the disk where she states the equivalent of “OH WAIT I WASN’T REALLY IN LOVE LOLZ”. Seriously, even the characters in FFV were better developed than those in FFVIII, and FFV is notorious for being considered as having some of the worst characters since they started to give FF PCs personalities.

Originally Posted by Slider

- Disc 4: I agree that Disc 4 didn't take time as much as the others but it was AWESOME (you can regret that like me but not hate it coz that indicates you wanted even MORE put in the game, it may sound unreasonnable but that's how I feel) also it included so many diffrent monsters if you think about it it probably had the BIGGEST variety of monsters and enemies

The final dungeon was ‘nifty’ and all but that was practically all there was on the disk. This wouldn’t have been a problem if everything had been resolved up to that point but the game still left many questions behind. Seifer I’ll talk about below. Ultimecia is never given a clear motivation. Time Compression is explained so poorly that people speculate as to its mechanics to this day. No details are given as to what happened to Galbardia, or anything to do with the dubious political situation in general, after Seifer’s defeat. Squall’s relationship with Laguna is never explored to the level it should have considering it had been built up throughout the entire game. It’s as if they forgot about the rest of the plot points and just decided to focus on the showdown with Ultimecia and threw a whole load of bizarre visuals at us to try and make us forget that there was anything else to explain.

Originally Posted by Slider

- Seifer : You're just mocking it, how about from mislead dream or brainwashed Seifer to the one who found piece of mind or the one regretting passing the age restriction of the SeeD exam and never becoming one?

I have nothing against Seifer. In fact, he’s one of the few characters I actually like in this game. What I was referring to was how he simply fades from the plot in disk 4 after trying to kill everyone, only to appear in the ending with a completely changed demeanor. Sure, it isn’t a great leap in logic to assume that Seifer would return the way he was after being defeated, but we are given no indication that Seifer was beginning to change at the time we last see him. In fact, where did he go? He just sort of throws Rinoa at Adel and runs off, never to be seen again until aforementioned final scene. This leaves a hole in the continuity of the game, a pretty inexcusable one since it wouldn’t have taken more than a few lines of dialogue to completely fill out the character.

[Gumdrop]

This is why these things are a bad idea, you often can't say something bad even when invited to without people getting upset.

If it had been handled well it may have been tolerable but “we all grew up together and then just kinda forgot about it due to Deus Ex Machina plot point ‘A’” is not the making of a great story.

That's the sort of thing I also hated about FF8s story.

Most of the characters receive almost no character development, some of them to the point where they are more like ‘avatars’ then they are characters. Most of the characters have one characteristic to define them, with all their actions within the game being based on that one characteristic. Zell and Selphie fall into this category. Beyond the stereotypical achetype that they portray, there isn’t anything to them. Then there are characters like Quistis and Irvine who look like they are going to receive some decent development but then virtually fall into a role of unimportance after the first disk. This is particularly noticeable for Quistis, who the characters clearly initially intended to be a love interest for Squall to compete with Rinoa. After the first disk however, any mention of these feelings is completely void up until one of the last moments in the disk where she states the equivalent of “OH WAIT I WASN’T REALLY IN LOVE LOLZ”. Seriously, even the characters in FFV were better developed than those in FFVIII, and FFV is notorious for being considered as having some of the worst characters since they started to give FF PCs personalities.

I very much agree. Nice that somebody else feels this way, people always seem to love the characters and story.

Disc 4 was okay, it could have been bigger but personaly I don't mind that much even if they probibly did do that just so they could say it spans four disks.

[Slider]

Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

If it had been handled well it may have been tolerable but “we all grew up together and then just kinda forgot about it due to Deus Ex Machina plot point ‘A’” is not the making of a great story.

So you need a better reason than the GF....oh well that's your saying but remeber that they seperated while being very very young as well.

Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

Most of the characters receive almost no character development, some of them to the point where they are more like ‘avatars’ then they are characters. Most of the characters have one characteristic to define them, with all their actions within the game being based on that one characteristic. Zell and Selphie fall into this category. Beyond the stereotypical achetype that they portray, there isn’t anything to them. Then there are characters like Quistis and Irvine who look like they are going to receive some decent development but then virtually fall into a role of unimportance after the first disk. This is particularly noticeable for Quistis, who the characters clearly initially intended to be a love interest for Squall to compete with Rinoa. After the first disk however, any mention of these feelings is completely void up until one of the last moments in the disk where she states the equivalent of “OH WAIT I WASN’T REALLY IN LOVE LOLZ”. Seriously, even the characters in FFV were better developed than those in FFVIII, and FFV is notorious for being considered as having some of the worst characters since they started to give FF PCs personalities.

Thankfully there weren't too much love twists or i might have HATED it for being a soap opera drama (one the things I hate most in life). As for the characters I don't think they're sterotypical espicially Squall who slowly and COMPLETELY changes throught the whole time. But I don't wanna discuss it and argue coz it will take a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNG time so in short you believe wht u want , n I'll do the same

Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

The final dungeon was ‘nifty’ and all but that was practically all there was on the disk. This wouldn’t have been a problem if everything had been resolved up to that point but the game still left many questions behind. Seifer I’ll talk about below. Ultimecia is never given a clear motivation. Time Compression is explained so poorly that people speculate as to its mechanics to this day. No details are given as to what happened to Galbardia, or anything to do with the dubious political situation in general, after Seifer’s defeat. Squall’s relationship with Laguna is never explored to the level it should have considering it had been built up throughout the entire game. It’s as if they forgot about the rest of the plot points and just decided to focus on the showdown with Ultimecia and threw a whole load of bizarre visuals at us to try and make us forget that there was anything else to explain.

Time Compression: Compressing the past with the coming future to form one eternal present, as for Ultimecia's final attempt to absorb Time and space that would've made her a Goddess who can create or get rid of any other existence than herself. but it's true that the final enemy was revealed very late unlike most of the other FFs in which you know your enemy since the begining. And it might've been cool too if they made Squall fight along Laguna Kiros and Ward (or just tied their fates in Disc 4 for awhile in any way) as REAL playable characters, but then again they were much older and haven't fought in so many years. So I'm guessing what you're saying (espicially about Disc 4)is that it was good but it could've been better, true?

Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

I have nothing against Seifer. In fact, he’s one of the few characters I actually like in this game. What I was referring to was how he simply fades from the plot in disk 4 after trying to kill everyone, only to appear in the ending with a completely changed demeanor. Sure, it isn’t a great leap in logic to assume that Seifer would return the way he was after being defeated, but we are given no indication that Seifer was beginning to change at the time we last see him. In fact, where did he go? He just sort of throws Rinoa at Adel and runs off, never to be seen again until aforementioned final scene. This leaves a hole in the continuity of the game, a pretty inexcusable one since it wouldn’t have taken more than a few lines of dialogue to completely fill out the character.

I agree there wasn't much explanation to what happened to Seifer in the end, but anyone would guess the hell going throught his mind by that time, I would've liked it also if Ultimicia had kept him as her knight (maybe she didn't when he was defeated several times or she thought she didn't need him anymore,but whatever) but you make a good point the only diffrence is that you dislike it and I don't at all!!!

[ThroneofDravaris]

Originally Posted by Slider

So you need a better reason than the GF....oh well that's your saying but remeber that they seperated while being very very young as well.

They were 7-8. Most people can clearly remember that time in their lives, especially when it’s only ten years later.

Originally Posted by Slider

Thankfully there weren't too much love twists or i might have HATED it for being a soap opera drama (one the things I hate most in life). As for the characters I don't think they're sterotypical espicially Squall who slowly and COMPLETELY changes throught the whole time.

This is why I said ‘vast majority of characters’ rather than ‘all’. Even so, Squall’s character development was dubious at best: He is pretty much the same person right up to the point where Rinoa fall into a coma, at which point he changes. Really though, Squall along with Rinoa and Laguna were still acceptable as characters. It was the way all of the supporting characters were glanced over that got to me.

Originally Posted by Slider

Time Compression: Compressing the past with the coming future to form one eternal present, as for Ultimecia's final attempt to absorb Time and space that would've made her a Goddess who can create or get rid of any other existence than herself.

We know what time compression is. It’s how it works that is not only confusing but also nonsensical. For example, moments from the beginning of game such as the first mission in Dollet are seen as being compressed yet we don’t see any of Time Compression's effects until the beginning of Disk 4. Also, we are never given a reason as to why Ultimecia has to travel into the past in order to start it off.

Originally Posted by Slider

but it's true that the final enemy was revealed very late unlike most of the other FFs in which you know your enemy since the begining.

No, in many FF games the true antagonist doesn’t appear until some point near the end of the game. FFI, FFIII, and FFIV all followed this pattern before FFVIII. The difference is that all of the villains in these games also had clear motivations for their actions. The only definite motivation that the game presents Ultimecia as having is that she’s evil.

Originally Posted by Slider

And it might've been cool too if they made Squall fight along Laguna Kiros and Ward (or just tied their fates in Disc 4 for awhile in any way) as REAL playable characters, but then again they were much older and haven't fought in so many years.

Not really. The limited cast didn’t really bother me in the slightest.

Originally Posted by Slider

So I'm guessing what you're saying (espicially about Disc 4)is that it was good but it could've been better, true?

No, I’m saying that Disk 4 would have been adequate if all of the game’s plot points other than the final battle had been resolved in Disk 3.

Originally Posted by Slider

I agree there wasn't much explanation to what happened to Seifer in the end, but anyone would guess the hell going throught his mind by that time, I would've liked it also if Ultimicia had kept him as her knight (maybe she didn't when he was defeated several times or she thought she didn't need him anymore,but whatever) but you make a good point the only diffrence is that you dislike it and I don't at all!!!

Even if it doesn’t bother you, surely you must acknowledge that said plot point was poorly handled due to aforementioned continuity issues and is therefore a flaw.

[Slider]

Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

They were 7-8. Most people can clearly remember that time in their lives, especially when it’s only ten years later.

I'm intrested to know your source that they were 7-8, they were five when garden was built, Zell was adopted, Quistis too but was returned, Selphie & Irvine were gone too, meaning Only Squall Seifer and Quistis stayed together until the others joined them.

Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

We know what time compression is. It’s how it works that is not only confusing but also nonsensical. For example, moments from the beginning of game such as the first mission in Dollet are seen as being compressed yet we don’t see any of Time Compression's effects until the beginning of Disk 4. Also, we are never given a reason as to why Ultimecia has to travel into the past in order to start it off.

I read this many time and I still can't figure out what you mean by the effects of time compression in Dollet? why would therebe any effect if Ultimecia achieved Time Compression at Disk 4?????????????? please explain!

Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

No, in many FF games the true antagonist doesn’t appear until some point near the end of the game. FFI, FFIII, and FFIV all followed this pattern before FFVIII. The difference is that all of the villains in these games also had clear motivations for their actions. The only definite motivation that the game presents Ultimecia as having is that she’s evil.

Dude, don't argue about that, it still leaves many others in which the antagonist appears early and even not all of the games you said showed the antagonist as late as VIII (althought you actually fought Ultimecia many times, she just was using Edea but her identity wasn't revealed)

Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

Even if it doesn’t bother you, surely you must acknowledge that said plot point was poorly handled due to aforementioned continuity issues and is therefore a flaw.

Not necessarily a flaw, not all storylines (this includes movies, books etc...) have the usual order : beginning, middle, ending. For example some of them just start from the past and end with the present. In 8, it was the present with a LOT of flashbacks and its ending is the actually the beginning's explanation. but yeah it was a bit confusing, but not too much to HATE it!!!!!???

[ThroneofDravaris]

Originally Posted by Slider

I'm intrested to know your source that they were 7-8, they were five when garden was built, Zell was adopted, Quistis too but was returned, Selphie & Irvine were gone too, meaning Only Squall Seifer and Quistis stayed together until the others joined them.

From what I gathered the events at the orphanage were from 10 years prior to the game. If I’m wrong I’ll retract that statement.

Originally Posted by Slider

I read this many time and I still can't figure out what you mean by the effects of time compression in Dollet? why would therebe any effect if Ultimecia achieved Time Compression at Disk 4?????????????? please explain!

It’s simple. If the events around the Dollet mission were being compressed then the characters should have been able to see the effects while they were enacting said mission. The fact that we only see the effects of time compression at the start of Disk 4 simply does not make any sense.

Originally Posted by Slider

Dude, don't argue about that, it still leaves many others in which the antagonist appears early and even not all of the games you said showed the antagonist as late as VIII (althought you actually fought Ultimecia many times, she just was using Edea but her identity wasn't revealed)

You’re missing the point of what I’m saying. I used those other antagonists as examples of successful villains that appear late in the game and yet were still filled out to a decent degree. The problem that I, and most other people, have with Ultimecia isn’t that she appeared late in the game, it’s that she didn’t have clear motivations for her actions.

And jftr, all the games I listed present the true antagonists as late, if not later than in FFVIII. Garlend appears in the beginning of FFI but the game gives no indication that he is the one manipulating the present until right before you fight him at the end of the game. The Cloud of Darkness doesn’t show up until the VERY end of the game in FFIII. Zemus isn’t mentioned until the characters visit the moon in FFIV.

Originally Posted by Slider

Not necessarily a flaw, not all storylines (this includes movies, books etc...) have the usual order : beginning, middle, ending. For example some of them just start from the past and end with the present. In 8, it was the present with a LOT of flashbacks and its ending is the actually the beginning's explanation. but yeah it was a bit confusing, but not too much to HATE it!!!!!???

I’m not talking about the main plot. I am purely talking about Seifer. The manner in which the main plot is presented is irrelevant to the continuity error between his disposition at the end of Disk 3/beginning of Disk 4 and in the ending FMV. Also, I don’t hate said continuity error; that would be incredibly pointless. I do, however recognize it as a flaw in the story telling; one which could have easily be avoided.

[ultimecia]

i think that the weapons and battling is not very good as you need to find a load of items to upgrade your weapons and bit crappy spells

[Slider]

-Balamb was built "12" years ago making the maximum age of the characters adoptions 6 years (if they were 18)
-Becoming a God isn't a motivation? in any case it didn't have a lot of drama or stories and explanations that's what you're saying.....................................
-I still CAN'T see (or maybe I still don't understand) why isn't the least bit reasonnable for you the way Seifer turnned out at the end. He found peace of mind at last and his posse that nearly abandonned him returned again!!

[ThroneofDravaris]

Originally Posted by Slider

-Balamb was built "12" years ago making the maximum age of the characters adoptions 6 years (if they were 18)

As I said, if I’m wrong about what I said I retract that statement.

Originally Posted by Slider

-Becoming a God isn't a motivation?

No, that is her goal. A well-developed villain has decent reasoning behind their actions in order to make them realistic.

Originally Posted by Slider

--I still CAN'T see (or maybe I still don't understand) why isn't the least bit reasonnable for you the way Seifer turnned out at the end. He found peace of mind at last and his posse that nearly abandonned him returned again!!

Once again you’re missed the point of what I said. I’m not saying his change wasn’t logical. I’m saying the fact that they don’t present the transition between when we see him in the Lunatic Pandora to when we see him fishing in the ending is sloppy story telling.

[Slider]

- I need to correct something you said before I explain my point of view, it's true that a villain needs a motivation but that's not to make it more realistic but just to enrich the plot with more turns and twists. For example not that Ultimicia's GOAL required any MOTIVATION (even I would do it!), becoming a God isn't usually what you turn down or needs much motivation (actually it would ruin the storyline: Imagine someone who wants to become a God for a CERTAIN reason, do you see where this is going?), but in any case from an outside view Ultimicia may SEEM unrelated in any way to the characters having her own goal and existing even in a diffrent time. But in an in depth look, she was THE BASIC REASON OF THE EXISTENCE OF GARDEN AND SEED (SeeD are even nammed that way for being seeds of the future that will defeat the sorceress, to remind you) so the villain character is A LOT more related to the characters than some might think.
So REGARDLESS of her motivation, I understand your point of view and I'm fine with that

- In which part did you expect Seifer to appear (to present his transition) again, do you think he would've EVER come back to Lunatic Pandora for ANY REASON- or at any time before Ultimicia was allowed to achieve Time Compression- He could've came back to help the characters, that way he fights along with Squall and rest his mind and revenge from Ultimicia's deciet/brainwash , but unfortunately his mind was in hell and he didn't come back which would've been TOO awakward to recover so quickly espcially after fighting his Garden friends and presenting Rinoa to Adel. Or should he have existed in Time Compression which would have been MOST unreasonnable and is self-explainatory. If you think about it, there was no place but the ending. So it wasn't sloppy story telling, more like perfection of the story (unless you had any other ideas).

[ThroneofDravaris]

Originally Posted by Slider

I need to correct something you said before I explain my point of view, it's true that a villain needs a motivation but that's not to make it more realistic but just to enrich the plot with more turns and twists.

It’s more realistic in that motivations makes her more human, rather than an evil persona.

Originally Posted by Slider

For example not that Ultimicia's GOAL required any MOTIVATION (even I would do it!), becoming a God isn't usually what you turn down or needs much motivation (actually it would ruin the storyline: Imagine someone who wants to become a God for a CERTAIN reason, do you see where this is going?)

Not good enough. You could say the same for villains like Kuja who desire to take over the world(s), yet Kuja’s motivations are explained clearly and the character itself has a significant backstory.

Originally Posted by Slider

but in any case from an outside view Ultimicia may SEEM unrelated in any way to the characters having her own goal and existing even in a diffrent time. But in an in depth look, she was THE BASIC REASON OF THE EXISTENCE OF GARDEN AND SEED (SeeD are even nammed that way for being seeds of the future that will defeat the sorceress, to remind you) so the villain character is A LOT more related to the characters than some might think.

I never said Ultimecia was unrelated to the plot.

Originally Posted by Slider

- In which part did you expect Seifer to appear (to present his transition) again, do you think he would've EVER come back to Lunatic Pandora for ANY REASON- or at any time before Ultimicia was allowed to achieve Time Compression- He could've came back to help the characters, that way he fights along with Squall and rest his mind and revenge from Ultimicia's deciet/brainwash , but unfortunately his mind was in hell and he didn't come back which would've been TOO awakward to recover so quickly espcially after fighting his Garden friends and presenting Rinoa to Adel. Or should he have existed in Time Compression which would have been MOST unreasonnable and is self-explainatory. If you think about it, there was no place but the ending. So it wasn't sloppy story telling, more like perfection of the story (unless you had any other ideas).

It would have taken all of 2 minutes, maybe less, to finish off Seifer’s story after Adel was defeated. There is no reason why they couldn’t have added a scene to at least give us the impression he was changing before Time Compression was to be activated.

[Slider]

-Not realistic!!!!!! Sorry but I don't think so, and you don't EVEN have to be evil if you seek infinite power!!!!!!!!! Even she was a controlling selfish type rather than taking joy in destroying humans she wished to exist by herself and be in control!!!
-WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN ?????? Time Compression happened almost as soon as Adel was defeated! I don't see in ANY way how that could've been possible

[ThroneofDravaris]

Originally Posted by Slider

-Not realistic!!!!!! Sorry but I don't think so, and you don't EVEN have to be evil if you seek infinite power!!!!!!!!! Even she was a controlling selfish type rather than taking joy in destroying humans she wished to exist by herself and be in control!!!

This does nothing to refute my point that she was never given a motivation for her actions. In fact, that paragraph is almost pure conjecture: we aren’t given any background information on Ultimecia so it is impossibly to tell whether she was evil or just really selfish.

Originally Posted by Slider

-WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN ?????? Time Compression happened almost as soon as Adel was defeated! I don't see in ANY way how that could've been possible

Time Compression did not immediately happen after Adel was defeated. Ellone initiates the process, there for they could have added the additional scene without effecting the plot. Even if it did though, there is no reason why they couldn’t have altered the scene entirely to incorporate extra dialogue.

[Slider]

- Actually it does, but I'm repeating myself, how much motivation do you need to become the most powerfull being with the ability to control existence???????? that's why you can overlook the motivation in that case or not give it too much importance if it wasn't clear enough .

-As for Seifer I'll have to ask you again, How? why? in What way? a short clip? in what way could they change the scene ENTIRELY? how important was that? how much significance would it add to his final appearance after it's all over? Why fade away from the main plot and the characters getting ready for SeeD's ultimate purpose for such a thing?