Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....

[forever yours]

I was wondering what everyone thought about rinoa eventually ending up as the Sorceress Ultimecia... to me it kinda makes sense but in the same way no. She does say aboard the Ragnarok that she wants time to stand still, and thats what time compression was about.... and the fact that ultimecia summons griever which may be a reincarnated squall.... but ultimecia was several generations ahead of Rinoa so, theres almost no chance that she is ultimecia.... what do all of you think???

[Slider]

Well, mah Lady. My answer to that have to be very precisely quoted trom the official thread where u can laugh at John Smith, and it goes like:

Originally Posted by reasoniamalive

*breathes deeply in order to laugh and point at smith*

XD Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

X'D Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!

X;D Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!! LOL!

Originally Posted by theDOCTOR

hahahaahaa, ow my side....HAHAHAhAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
*gets in trouble with the teacherfor laughing out loud in class*
awww...man...
hahahahahhahahahahahahaha

Originally Posted by blackstar

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *passes out on the floor*

Originally Posted by Kat

o.o


teehee

Squaresoft themselves announced that there was NO KIND of relation between the TWO sorceresses other than Ultimecia possesing Rinoa

[John Smith]

Thanks for recognition, Slider! XD

Anyway, don't make fun out of the dude/dudette. It's not polite! :O

Anyhow, Rinoa is not evil, so even if she could live about 10.000 years, Ultimecia and her wouldn't ever be the same person!

[dirge_of_sephiroth]

my personal theory was that Ultimecia was actually a descendant of Rinoa and Squall. Always worked for me. Then I heard about the theory of Rinoa and Ultimecia being the same person. I thought, really? no way. But then whenever I'd play the game afterwards it would seem to make more and more sense. Then I read somewhere (official, I think) that Rinoa was not Ultimecia, so I went back to the descendant theory.

[Slider]

(ahem) sorry dirge

but even ur second oppinion, is unrealistic too

i mean WHY would ultimecia want to kill her grandgrandgrandgrandparents?

[dirge_of_sephiroth]

Good point... Really good point...

So I guess unless she was an orphan and unaware of her family history that really wouldn't work.

[forever yours]

Im going to post a section of a theory from www.gamefaqs.com



By: Sir Bahamut -- Real name: Kristian J. Strømmen

TheOnionKnight -- Real name: N/A

Squall_of_SeeD -- Real name: Glenn Morrow


1) THE RINOA = ULTIMECIA THEORY

This highly controversial theory has become immensely (in)famous ever since
it was first conceived of. Whoever it was who first came up with the idea, we
don't know, because so many ripped him/her off that it's become impossible
to tell by now.

The theory basically states that Ultimecia is in fact an older Rinoa.
In other words, after the game ended, a string of events was set into motion,
ultimately leading to Rinoa ending up "becoming" Ultimecia.
This simple idea has been subject to much hate, and much praise too. It seems
you either love it or hate it.

Ultimately, we will show that the theory is highly implausible, and simply
not valid, or even possible as a theory. We will show that there is
absolutely no basis in assuming Square intended for Rinoa to be Ultimecia,
ultimately nailing the coffin by referring to the Ultimania Guide itself,
Square's official guidebook.


THE BASIS

The R=U theory is a proposition of what might happen to Rinoa after
a set of assumptions are made. To be precise, these assumptions are:

1) A sorceress has extended lifespan, and will live much longer than a normal
human.

2) Rinoa wouldn't give away her powers to some other innocent girl, and would
instead want to keep them herself.

3) Rinoas mental strength isn't all that good if she's all alone(ie. without
Squall and Co).

You may notice that assumptions 2 and 3 are really subsets of a greater
assumption, or rather interpretation of the plot; Rinoas psyche.
Obviously everyone will form an opinion of the main characters psyche during
the game, and this theory is based on an interpretation of Rinoa which makes
assumptions 2 and 3 perfectly logical and plausible. Assumption 1 is brought
up later, but just accept it now for the sake of understanding the theory.

It is quite trivial to see that once the three(or as explained, two)
assumptions are drawn, we can deduce that Rinoa will outlive Squall and all
her friends. They will all die eventually, whether it be of age, illness or
in combat. Rinoa will witness her true love and Knight(Squall) die, as well
as her father and all her other friends, die. They will die and she will not.

I mentioned that Squall is Rinoas knight. Just to remind you what we know
about a sorceress knight:

Edea tells us that a sorceresses Knight is supposed to help maintain the
sorceresses mental stability, keep her from bucking under to the pressure
of the people(remember that sorceresses are generally hated, there is even
an organisation made solely for killing them!). Adel for instance, had no
Knight, and I don’t think I have to remind you what kind of a sorceress Adel
was! An example of a good knight, would be Edeas knight, Cid.

So we have a Rinoa, all alone in a world filled with people who generally
want her dead, fear her and hate her, knowing that SeeD still exists to
kill people like her. We have a Rinoa in this scenario, without a Knight.

Based on the aforementioned assumptions, we can now see that Rinoa could very
easily be Ultimecia, driven insane by the grief and pressure, probably
driven to severe paranoia. Eventually, she is so warped that there's hardly
any trace of the old Rinoa in her. Instead, she is now the evil Ultimecia,
trying to compress time and absorb all sorceress powers and eventually all
time and space itself.

I should add that if Rinoa continued to use GFs after the game ended, her
insanity would doubtlessly be "amplified". GFs are very effective at removing
memory after all. Remember Squall. He had forgotten almost all his childhood
except the strongest memories of Ellone, and he'd only used GFs for 4-5
years. Of course this added assumption cannot realistically be backed up by
anything over than personal opinions on what happens after the game, so it
it is not a strong point in itself, and we are really left with insanity
as the thing. The theory requires such a strong insanity over such a long
time that Rinoa could literally become a completely different person(if you
then wonder what the point of the theory is, since R and U are basically
different people anyway, you are not alone).

Now, you may ask yourself what "hints" supposedly back up this claim? And
are there not certain things in the game which seem to contradict this
theory? In this next section, all arguments used in favour of the theory
are discussed, and as we shall see, it does not contain much backing from
the game.

NOTE: This next bit was written (almost) entirely by Squall_Of_SeeD, based
primarily on the framework created mainly by myself(Sir B), with hints
and such having been compiled from a multitude of sources over time.

Also note that sorceress will be referred to as Witches in this next
bit, seeing as that is that they were called in the japanese version.

[forever yours]

The second part.----------------------------
1) Witches and Immortality
----------------------------

The theory works off of the assumption that Witches have immortality as its
core concept. Often-cited evidence of this is that Edea's facial features are
far younger than should be the case for a woman married to a 40 year old man
(as her husband, Cid Kramer, happens to be). Another bit of evidence offered
in this regard is that Ultimecia needed to go further into the past to cast
Time Compression than the generation the game takes place in. When she finally
is sent far enough back, it is into Adel's younger self that she is sent. The
assumption here is that Ultimecia must have needed to go much further back in
time, and that Adel, consequently, has lived longer than a normal lifespan.

As for Adel, considering how little we know of the mechanics of Time
Compression, it's hardly a safe forest to venture into when looking for
support for this notion. We don't know the limits of Junction Machine Ellone's
power to send Ultimecia into the past. It may have been one year shorter than
where she needed to be or 100 years too short.


-------------------------------
2) Witches and Dying in Peace
-------------------------------

Near the ending of the game, just before Ultimecia's death, Edea makes this
very important statement: "In order to die in peace, a sorceress must be free
of all her powers." What, then, does she mean? Does she mean that dying
without first giving up one's powers would mean a bad afterlife existance for
a Witch? Or does she mean that a Witch must simply be free of her powers to
die?

This could, perhaps, be taken to mean "Remaining alive, but not properly,
forever caught in the dying moment until the Witch is free of her powers." If
this is so, then it may well be that Witches are immortal after all, if they
can't even die until they are free of their powers. In fact, the Japanese line
that Edea speaks here is simply "A Witch cannot die while still holding on to
the Witches' power." It may be that in the case of Witches who do die, they're
either giving up their powers so as to be free of the pain of death, or their
body is simply forcing them to surrender their powers.

----------------------
3) Witches and Hyne
----------------------

Hyne is said to have been the progenitor of the Witch Embodiment powers. The
story of Hyne also goes that he created Homo Sapiens, then took a nap while
they worked. When he awoke, he found that they had multiplied beyond his
capacity to control them. In order for them to have multiplied so, it must be
that his nap lasted a few hundred to several thousand years. This must mean
that Hyne is immortal. Considering that the Witch Embodiment originates from
him, it may well be that the Witches inherited increased longevity, or full
immortality.

----------------------------
4) Witches and Appearances
----------------------------

While it may be argued that Ultimecia's gray hair -- something that normally
wouldn't happen except in the case of aging -- is indicative of her lacking
immortality, it should be kept in mind that when possessing Edea, Ultimecia
changed the length of her host body's hair from several feet to a few inches
in seconds. For that matter, through their use of Black Magicks, many Witches
display physical abnormalities, whether they be the veins on Edea's face and
her elongated fingers, Adel's muscular appearance and discoloured skin, or the
larger-than-normal bodies of the eleven Witches encountered by SeeD as they
made their way to the future.

Another point often brought up to contest this aspect of the theory is that
Adel seeking a successor suggests that Witches do have a limited lifespan, but
it should be remembered that Adel was at war with the world, and her own
subjects hated her. It may simply be that she feared being assassinated
without having a chosen successor already selected. She wouldn't want to
endure the pain of her death constantly until having found one.


Sorceress

The legend goes that the Great Hyne created people. The sorceresses were given
a fragment of Hyne's own power. It's hard to determine how many sorceresses
exist today, for many keep their powers concealed. However, it is believed
that they avoid spreading their power too thin.


-----------------------
5) Witches and Wings
-----------------------

In the opening FMV, Rinoa is shown at one point emerging from a group of white
feathers, the same colour as the feathers on her wings. She's later shown
emerging from a group of black feathers, the same colour as the feathers of
Ultimecia's wings. Ultimecia is the only Witch aside from Rinoa to be shown
to have wings. This may be an indication of who Rinoa will become, her soul
tainted and dark after the loss of her Knight. She is then no longer an
"Angel," but a "Fallen Angel" instead, this represented through her black
wings.

*Response*:

Wings and feathers are a motif of the main Witches in the game.
Edea's dress has black feathers around the collar, Adel has two spiky
wing-like protrusions extending from her back, Rinoa has her white feathery
wings, and Ultimecia has her black, somewhat spiny, feathered wings. With this
in mind, all that's represented here is a connection between Witches, not a
connection between Rinoa and Ultimecia alone. The connection between Rinoa and
Ultimecia is that their wings are black and white, representing good and evil,
opposing representations of these concepts, and opposite representations of
the use of the Witch Embodiment.

-----------------------------------------------
6) Ultimecia's Words During The Final Battle
-----------------------------------------------

During the final battle with Ultimecia, her words may illustrate that she
believes that the things one cares about will slip away from them inevitably,
as Squall and Rinoa's other friends would have were she immortal:

"Reflect on your..."
"Childhood..."
"Your sensation..."
"Your words..."
"Your emotions..."
"Time..."
"It will not wait..."
"No matter..."
"...how hard you hold on."
"It escapes you..."


This may have been an attempt on Rinoa's part to reach out to Squall.

*Response*:

Considering that Ultimecia makes no **other** attempt to "reach
out to Squall" during the game, merely trying to kill him each time she
encounters him instead, it's hardly plausible that she's suddenly doing that
at this point. For that matter, It's not even clear what Ultimecia's really
talking about here. She may be talking about time itself. It may be a round
about way of her telling them that their defeat is inevitable. Personally, I
think it most likely another reference to everything having been fated, even
from Squall and the others' childhoods. Whatever it is, there's nothing to
suggest it to have anything to do with Squall or to suggest that this is
Rinoa talking.


-----------------------
7) Time Compression
-----------------------

Recall that onboard the Ragnarok, Rinoa expressed a desire for time to stand
still so that she could remain with Squall:

Rinoa
"I don't want the future. I want the present to stand still. I just want to
stay here with you..."


Now, recall that Ultimecia intended to use Time Compression, a Spell that
would cause all time to exist in a single instance. While this is not
necessarily the same thing as "making time stand still," Rinoa's words on the
Rangarok **do** express a desire to control time. It may well be that Rinoa
wanted to meet Squall again and be with him in a moment of peace forever.
Having gone insane, however, she may well have forgotten her desire to use
Time Compression to meet Squall, and then decided to use the Spell for other
purposes. Insane people do insane things, as has been said before.

*Response*:

As with so much of this theory, this requires unsubstantiated
assumptions. Aside from the obvious fact that Ultimecia could have met Squall
again -- if that's what she so desired -- by simply using Junction Machine
Ellone and going to the past, there's also the even more obvious fact that
Ultimecia's goals as expressed by the game and hinted at by the Final
Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide had nothing to do with Squall. Ultimecia's goal
was to avoid her fated death at Squall's hands, and to then become one with
all that existed in the universe, though with mastery over it, essentially
becoming God in the process.

[Tifa-chan]

There could have been a chance, but I don't think so.

[Slider]

Originally Posted by forever yours

*Response*:

As with so much of this theory, this requires unsubstantiated
assumptions. Aside from the obvious fact that Ultimecia could have met Squall
again -- if that's what she so desired -- by simply using Junction Machine
Ellone and going to the past, there's also the even more obvious fact that
Ultimecia's goals as expressed by the game and hinted at by the Final
Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide had nothing to do with Squall. Ultimecia's goal
was to avoid her fated death at Squall's hands, and to then become one with
all that existed in the universe, though with mastery over it, essentially
becoming God in the process.

Thankfully I didn't read anything other than that! if i did i would become brainwashed over a false theory of wanna-be(s) who want some attention

+ I'm 1 billion percent sure that if i waisted my time to read it I will find some small overlooked/changed details that have a major role in that weird theory

[Drake]

Originally Posted by dirge_of_sephiroth

Good point... Really good point...

So I guess unless she was an orphan and unaware of her family history that really wouldn't work.

Or if Ultimecia was psychotic. But she is, insn't she?

[forever yours]

i really hope that she really isn't ultimecia in the future....... that would be really sad.

[Drake]

Even if she is, I doubt it's Rinoa's fault. She may or may not have any control over her actions in future lives. Plus, (apparently) when you're reincarnated your new life can be completely different than previous ones.

[Slider]

I have a question:

If Sorceresses REALLY do live forever then wouldn't Edea live unil Ultimecia's time? or isn't it a possibility that she could be actually Ultimecia?
(I know what u're all gonna say but...)
I don't think it's rationnal at all, that edea would die because she got rid of her powers.
I mean imagine if she had already lived 150 years before giving up her powers, would she have kept getting old and turnned to dust immediately? How corny is THAT, too corny to be in the storyline imo

result: Nah, I don't think sorceress could live forever even which officially lionhearts the Rinoa/Ultimecia vision

[Luis]

http://www.ffnet.net/forum/showthrea...5&page=1&pp=15