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04-04-2007, 12:42 AM | #1 |
Moogle Farmer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: floor 12, castle oblivion.
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Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
I was wondering what everyone thought about rinoa eventually ending up as the Sorceress Ultimecia... to me it kinda makes sense but in the same way no. She does say aboard the Ragnarok that she wants time to stand still, and thats what time compression was about.... and the fact that ultimecia summons griever which may be a reincarnated squall.... but ultimecia was several generations ahead of Rinoa so, theres almost no chance that she is ultimecia.... what do all of you think???
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04-04-2007, 05:13 AM | #2 | ||||
Master Summoner
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,866
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
Well, mah Lady. My answer to that have to be very precisely quoted trom the official thread where u can laugh at John Smith, and it goes like:
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Last edited by Slider; 04-04-2007 at 05:49 AM. |
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04-04-2007, 09:05 AM | #3 |
~Wizard~
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
Thanks for recognition, Slider! XD
Anyway, don't make fun out of the dude/dudette. It's not polite! :O Anyhow, Rinoa is not evil, so even if she could live about 10.000 years, Ultimecia and her wouldn't ever be the same person!
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04-04-2007, 11:18 AM | #4 |
Cactuar Thorn
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
my personal theory was that Ultimecia was actually a descendant of Rinoa and Squall. Always worked for me. Then I heard about the theory of Rinoa and Ultimecia being the same person. I thought, really? no way. But then whenever I'd play the game afterwards it would seem to make more and more sense. Then I read somewhere (official, I think) that Rinoa was not Ultimecia, so I went back to the descendant theory.
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04-04-2007, 12:55 PM | #5 |
Master Summoner
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
(ahem) sorry dirge
but even ur second oppinion, is unrealistic too i mean WHY would ultimecia want to kill her grandgrandgrandgrandparents? |
04-04-2007, 01:13 PM | #6 |
Cactuar Thorn
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
Good point... Really good point...
So I guess unless she was an orphan and unaware of her family history that really wouldn't work.
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04-08-2007, 10:18 PM | #7 | |
Death Dreamer
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
Quote:
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04-05-2007, 12:55 AM | #8 |
Moogle Farmer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: floor 12, castle oblivion.
Age: 35
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
Im going to post a section of a theory from www.gamefaqs.com
By: Sir Bahamut -- Real name: Kristian J. Strřmmen TheOnionKnight -- Real name: N/A Squall_of_SeeD -- Real name: Glenn Morrow 1) THE RINOA = ULTIMECIA THEORY This highly controversial theory has become immensely (in)famous ever since it was first conceived of. Whoever it was who first came up with the idea, we don't know, because so many ripped him/her off that it's become impossible to tell by now. The theory basically states that Ultimecia is in fact an older Rinoa. In other words, after the game ended, a string of events was set into motion, ultimately leading to Rinoa ending up "becoming" Ultimecia. This simple idea has been subject to much hate, and much praise too. It seems you either love it or hate it. Ultimately, we will show that the theory is highly implausible, and simply not valid, or even possible as a theory. We will show that there is absolutely no basis in assuming Square intended for Rinoa to be Ultimecia, ultimately nailing the coffin by referring to the Ultimania Guide itself, Square's official guidebook. THE BASIS The R=U theory is a proposition of what might happen to Rinoa after a set of assumptions are made. To be precise, these assumptions are: 1) A sorceress has extended lifespan, and will live much longer than a normal human. 2) Rinoa wouldn't give away her powers to some other innocent girl, and would instead want to keep them herself. 3) Rinoas mental strength isn't all that good if she's all alone(ie. without Squall and Co). You may notice that assumptions 2 and 3 are really subsets of a greater assumption, or rather interpretation of the plot; Rinoas psyche. Obviously everyone will form an opinion of the main characters psyche during the game, and this theory is based on an interpretation of Rinoa which makes assumptions 2 and 3 perfectly logical and plausible. Assumption 1 is brought up later, but just accept it now for the sake of understanding the theory. It is quite trivial to see that once the three(or as explained, two) assumptions are drawn, we can deduce that Rinoa will outlive Squall and all her friends. They will all die eventually, whether it be of age, illness or in combat. Rinoa will witness her true love and Knight(Squall) die, as well as her father and all her other friends, die. They will die and she will not. I mentioned that Squall is Rinoas knight. Just to remind you what we know about a sorceress knight: Edea tells us that a sorceresses Knight is supposed to help maintain the sorceresses mental stability, keep her from bucking under to the pressure of the people(remember that sorceresses are generally hated, there is even an organisation made solely for killing them!). Adel for instance, had no Knight, and I dont think I have to remind you what kind of a sorceress Adel was! An example of a good knight, would be Edeas knight, Cid. So we have a Rinoa, all alone in a world filled with people who generally want her dead, fear her and hate her, knowing that SeeD still exists to kill people like her. We have a Rinoa in this scenario, without a Knight. Based on the aforementioned assumptions, we can now see that Rinoa could very easily be Ultimecia, driven insane by the grief and pressure, probably driven to severe paranoia. Eventually, she is so warped that there's hardly any trace of the old Rinoa in her. Instead, she is now the evil Ultimecia, trying to compress time and absorb all sorceress powers and eventually all time and space itself. I should add that if Rinoa continued to use GFs after the game ended, her insanity would doubtlessly be "amplified". GFs are very effective at removing memory after all. Remember Squall. He had forgotten almost all his childhood except the strongest memories of Ellone, and he'd only used GFs for 4-5 years. Of course this added assumption cannot realistically be backed up by anything over than personal opinions on what happens after the game, so it it is not a strong point in itself, and we are really left with insanity as the thing. The theory requires such a strong insanity over such a long time that Rinoa could literally become a completely different person(if you then wonder what the point of the theory is, since R and U are basically different people anyway, you are not alone). Now, you may ask yourself what "hints" supposedly back up this claim? And are there not certain things in the game which seem to contradict this theory? In this next section, all arguments used in favour of the theory are discussed, and as we shall see, it does not contain much backing from the game. NOTE: This next bit was written (almost) entirely by Squall_Of_SeeD, based primarily on the framework created mainly by myself(Sir B), with hints and such having been compiled from a multitude of sources over time. Also note that sorceress will be referred to as Witches in this next bit, seeing as that is that they were called in the japanese version. |
04-05-2007, 12:56 AM | #9 |
Moogle Farmer
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
The second part.----------------------------
1) Witches and Immortality ---------------------------- The theory works off of the assumption that Witches have immortality as its core concept. Often-cited evidence of this is that Edea's facial features are far younger than should be the case for a woman married to a 40 year old man (as her husband, Cid Kramer, happens to be). Another bit of evidence offered in this regard is that Ultimecia needed to go further into the past to cast Time Compression than the generation the game takes place in. When she finally is sent far enough back, it is into Adel's younger self that she is sent. The assumption here is that Ultimecia must have needed to go much further back in time, and that Adel, consequently, has lived longer than a normal lifespan. As for Adel, considering how little we know of the mechanics of Time Compression, it's hardly a safe forest to venture into when looking for support for this notion. We don't know the limits of Junction Machine Ellone's power to send Ultimecia into the past. It may have been one year shorter than where she needed to be or 100 years too short. ------------------------------- 2) Witches and Dying in Peace ------------------------------- Near the ending of the game, just before Ultimecia's death, Edea makes this very important statement: "In order to die in peace, a sorceress must be free of all her powers." What, then, does she mean? Does she mean that dying without first giving up one's powers would mean a bad afterlife existance for a Witch? Or does she mean that a Witch must simply be free of her powers to die? This could, perhaps, be taken to mean "Remaining alive, but not properly, forever caught in the dying moment until the Witch is free of her powers." If this is so, then it may well be that Witches are immortal after all, if they can't even die until they are free of their powers. In fact, the Japanese line that Edea speaks here is simply "A Witch cannot die while still holding on to the Witches' power." It may be that in the case of Witches who do die, they're either giving up their powers so as to be free of the pain of death, or their body is simply forcing them to surrender their powers. ---------------------- 3) Witches and Hyne ---------------------- Hyne is said to have been the progenitor of the Witch Embodiment powers. The story of Hyne also goes that he created Homo Sapiens, then took a nap while they worked. When he awoke, he found that they had multiplied beyond his capacity to control them. In order for them to have multiplied so, it must be that his nap lasted a few hundred to several thousand years. This must mean that Hyne is immortal. Considering that the Witch Embodiment originates from him, it may well be that the Witches inherited increased longevity, or full immortality. ---------------------------- 4) Witches and Appearances ---------------------------- While it may be argued that Ultimecia's gray hair -- something that normally wouldn't happen except in the case of aging -- is indicative of her lacking immortality, it should be kept in mind that when possessing Edea, Ultimecia changed the length of her host body's hair from several feet to a few inches in seconds. For that matter, through their use of Black Magicks, many Witches display physical abnormalities, whether they be the veins on Edea's face and her elongated fingers, Adel's muscular appearance and discoloured skin, or the larger-than-normal bodies of the eleven Witches encountered by SeeD as they made their way to the future. Another point often brought up to contest this aspect of the theory is that Adel seeking a successor suggests that Witches do have a limited lifespan, but it should be remembered that Adel was at war with the world, and her own subjects hated her. It may simply be that she feared being assassinated without having a chosen successor already selected. She wouldn't want to endure the pain of her death constantly until having found one. Sorceress The legend goes that the Great Hyne created people. The sorceresses were given a fragment of Hyne's own power. It's hard to determine how many sorceresses exist today, for many keep their powers concealed. However, it is believed that they avoid spreading their power too thin. ----------------------- 5) Witches and Wings ----------------------- In the opening FMV, Rinoa is shown at one point emerging from a group of white feathers, the same colour as the feathers on her wings. She's later shown emerging from a group of black feathers, the same colour as the feathers of Ultimecia's wings. Ultimecia is the only Witch aside from Rinoa to be shown to have wings. This may be an indication of who Rinoa will become, her soul tainted and dark after the loss of her Knight. She is then no longer an "Angel," but a "Fallen Angel" instead, this represented through her black wings. *Response*: Wings and feathers are a motif of the main Witches in the game. Edea's dress has black feathers around the collar, Adel has two spiky wing-like protrusions extending from her back, Rinoa has her white feathery wings, and Ultimecia has her black, somewhat spiny, feathered wings. With this in mind, all that's represented here is a connection between Witches, not a connection between Rinoa and Ultimecia alone. The connection between Rinoa and Ultimecia is that their wings are black and white, representing good and evil, opposing representations of these concepts, and opposite representations of the use of the Witch Embodiment. ----------------------------------------------- 6) Ultimecia's Words During The Final Battle ----------------------------------------------- During the final battle with Ultimecia, her words may illustrate that she believes that the things one cares about will slip away from them inevitably, as Squall and Rinoa's other friends would have were she immortal: "Reflect on your..." "Childhood..." "Your sensation..." "Your words..." "Your emotions..." "Time..." "It will not wait..." "No matter..." "...how hard you hold on." "It escapes you..." This may have been an attempt on Rinoa's part to reach out to Squall. *Response*: Considering that Ultimecia makes no **other** attempt to "reach out to Squall" during the game, merely trying to kill him each time she encounters him instead, it's hardly plausible that she's suddenly doing that at this point. For that matter, It's not even clear what Ultimecia's really talking about here. She may be talking about time itself. It may be a round about way of her telling them that their defeat is inevitable. Personally, I think it most likely another reference to everything having been fated, even from Squall and the others' childhoods. Whatever it is, there's nothing to suggest it to have anything to do with Squall or to suggest that this is Rinoa talking. ----------------------- 7) Time Compression ----------------------- Recall that onboard the Ragnarok, Rinoa expressed a desire for time to stand still so that she could remain with Squall: Rinoa "I don't want the future. I want the present to stand still. I just want to stay here with you..." Now, recall that Ultimecia intended to use Time Compression, a Spell that would cause all time to exist in a single instance. While this is not necessarily the same thing as "making time stand still," Rinoa's words on the Rangarok **do** express a desire to control time. It may well be that Rinoa wanted to meet Squall again and be with him in a moment of peace forever. Having gone insane, however, she may well have forgotten her desire to use Time Compression to meet Squall, and then decided to use the Spell for other purposes. Insane people do insane things, as has been said before. *Response*: As with so much of this theory, this requires unsubstantiated assumptions. Aside from the obvious fact that Ultimecia could have met Squall again -- if that's what she so desired -- by simply using Junction Machine Ellone and going to the past, there's also the even more obvious fact that Ultimecia's goals as expressed by the game and hinted at by the Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide had nothing to do with Squall. Ultimecia's goal was to avoid her fated death at Squall's hands, and to then become one with all that existed in the universe, though with mastery over it, essentially becoming God in the process. |
04-05-2007, 04:04 PM | #10 | |
Master Summoner
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
Quote:
+ I'm 1 billion percent sure that if i waisted my time to read it I will find some small overlooked/changed details that have a major role in that weird theory |
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04-05-2007, 09:04 AM | #11 |
Gunblade Expert
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
There could have been a chance, but I don't think so.
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04-10-2007, 10:38 PM | #12 |
Moogle Farmer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: floor 12, castle oblivion.
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
i really hope that she really isn't ultimecia in the future....... that would be really sad.
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04-13-2007, 01:17 PM | #13 |
Death Dreamer
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
Even if she is, I doubt it's Rinoa's fault. She may or may not have any control over her actions in future lives. Plus, (apparently) when you're reincarnated your new life can be completely different than previous ones.
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04-13-2007, 03:05 PM | #14 |
Master Summoner
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
I have a question:
If Sorceresses REALLY do live forever then wouldn't Edea live unil Ultimecia's time? or isn't it a possibility that she could be actually Ultimecia? (I know what u're all gonna say but...) I don't think it's rationnal at all, that edea would die because she got rid of her powers. I mean imagine if she had already lived 150 years before giving up her powers, would she have kept getting old and turnned to dust immediately? How corny is THAT, too corny to be in the storyline imo result: Nah, I don't think sorceress could live forever even which officially lionhearts the Rinoa/Ultimecia vision |
04-13-2007, 07:04 PM | #15 |
ˇˇ Fresón rebelde ˇˇ
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Re: Rinoa, Ultimecia theory....
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