Likes and dislike about VIII

[Slider]

- I need to correct something you said before I explain my point of view, it's true that a villain needs a motivation but that's not to make it more realistic but just to enrich the plot with more turns and twists. For example not that Ultimicia's GOAL required any MOTIVATION (even I would do it!), becoming a God isn't usually what you turn down or needs much motivation (actually it would ruin the storyline: Imagine someone who wants to become a God for a CERTAIN reason, do you see where this is going?), but in any case from an outside view Ultimicia may SEEM unrelated in any way to the characters having her own goal and existing even in a diffrent time. But in an in depth look, she was THE BASIC REASON OF THE EXISTENCE OF GARDEN AND SEED (SeeD are even nammed that way for being seeds of the future that will defeat the sorceress, to remind you) so the villain character is A LOT more related to the characters than some might think.
So REGARDLESS of her motivation, I understand your point of view and I'm fine with that

- In which part did you expect Seifer to appear (to present his transition) again, do you think he would've EVER come back to Lunatic Pandora for ANY REASON- or at any time before Ultimicia was allowed to achieve Time Compression- He could've came back to help the characters, that way he fights along with Squall and rest his mind and revenge from Ultimicia's deciet/brainwash , but unfortunately his mind was in hell and he didn't come back which would've been TOO awakward to recover so quickly espcially after fighting his Garden friends and presenting Rinoa to Adel. Or should he have existed in Time Compression which would have been MOST unreasonnable and is self-explainatory. If you think about it, there was no place but the ending. So it wasn't sloppy story telling, more like perfection of the story (unless you had any other ideas).

 

[ThroneofDravaris]

I need to correct something you said before I explain my point of view, it's true that a villain needs a motivation but that's not to make it more realistic but just to enrich the plot with more turns and twists.

It’s more realistic in that motivations makes her more human, rather than an evil persona.

For example not that Ultimicia's GOAL required any MOTIVATION (even I would do it!), becoming a God isn't usually what you turn down or needs much motivation (actually it would ruin the storyline: Imagine someone who wants to become a God for a CERTAIN reason, do you see where this is going?)

Not good enough. You could say the same for villains like Kuja who desire to take over the world(s), yet Kuja’s motivations are explained clearly and the character itself has a significant backstory.

but in any case from an outside view Ultimicia may SEEM unrelated in any way to the characters having her own goal and existing even in a diffrent time. But in an in depth look, she was THE BASIC REASON OF THE EXISTENCE OF GARDEN AND SEED (SeeD are even nammed that way for being seeds of the future that will defeat the sorceress, to remind you) so the villain character is A LOT more related to the characters than some might think.

I never said Ultimecia was unrelated to the plot.

- In which part did you expect Seifer to appear (to present his transition) again, do you think he would've EVER come back to Lunatic Pandora for ANY REASON- or at any time before Ultimicia was allowed to achieve Time Compression- He could've came back to help the characters, that way he fights along with Squall and rest his mind and revenge from Ultimicia's deciet/brainwash , but unfortunately his mind was in hell and he didn't come back which would've been TOO awakward to recover so quickly espcially after fighting his Garden friends and presenting Rinoa to Adel. Or should he have existed in Time Compression which would have been MOST unreasonnable and is self-explainatory. If you think about it, there was no place but the ending. So it wasn't sloppy story telling, more like perfection of the story (unless you had any other ideas).

It would have taken all of 2 minutes, maybe less, to finish off Seifer’s story after Adel was defeated. There is no reason why they couldn’t have added a scene to at least give us the impression he was changing before Time Compression was to be activated.

 

[Slider]

-Not realistic!!!!!! Sorry but I don't think so, and you don't EVEN have to be evil if you seek infinite power!!!!!!!!! Even she was a controlling selfish type rather than taking joy in destroying humans she wished to exist by herself and be in control!!!
-WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN ?????? Time Compression happened almost as soon as Adel was defeated! I don't see in ANY way how that could've been possible

 

[ThroneofDravaris]

-Not realistic!!!!!! Sorry but I don't think so, and you don't EVEN have to be evil if you seek infinite power!!!!!!!!! Even she was a controlling selfish type rather than taking joy in destroying humans she wished to exist by herself and be in control!!!

This does nothing to refute my point that she was never given a motivation for her actions. In fact, that paragraph is almost pure conjecture: we aren’t given any background information on Ultimecia so it is impossibly to tell whether she was evil or just really selfish.

-WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN ?????? Time Compression happened almost as soon as Adel was defeated! I don't see in ANY way how that could've been possible

Time Compression did not immediately happen after Adel was defeated. Ellone initiates the process, there for they could have added the additional scene without effecting the plot. Even if it did though, there is no reason why they couldn’t have altered the scene entirely to incorporate extra dialogue.

 

[Slider]

- Actually it does, but I'm repeating myself, how much motivation do you need to become the most powerfull being with the ability to control existence???????? that's why you can overlook the motivation in that case or not give it too much importance if it wasn't clear enough .

-As for Seifer I'll have to ask you again, How? why? in What way? a short clip? in what way could they change the scene ENTIRELY? how important was that? how much significance would it add to his final appearance after it's all over? Why fade away from the main plot and the characters getting ready for SeeD's ultimate purpose for such a thing?

 

[ThroneofDravaris]

- Actually it does, but I'm repeating myself, how much motivation do you need to become the most powerfull being with the ability to control existence???????? that's why you can overlook the motivation in that case or not give it too much importance if it wasn't clear enough .

No, you can’t. A character that has no backstory and no real motivation is still a two dimensional character, no matter how obviously entertaining it would be to control all existence.

-As for Seifer I'll have to ask you again, How? why? in What way? a short clip? in what way could they change the scene ENTIRELY? how important was that? how much significance would it add to his final appearance after it's all over? Why fade away from the main plot and the characters getting ready for SeeD's ultimate purpose for such a thing?

I have already stated several times that only a very short scene would have been required to fill out Seifer’s character and forshadow his appearance in the ending. It doesn’t have to interfere with the Final Battle at all; straight after the battle with Adel would have been just fine. This is important in that it would mend the continuity error within Disk 4 and provide a plausible, logical ending to a pivotal character within the game.

 

[Slider]

TO END THIS, coz it's taken too long
Your rating of the importance of Ultimicia's motivation in FF8 is diffrent than mine same as for what happened to the nemesis Seifer alright?
If you are still willing to discuss it then let's pm before we drift Off-Topic

 

[ThroneofDravaris]

Clearly, this discussion is simply going to go around in circles due to said difference of opinion on the level of depth which should have been incorporated into the plot, so it is probably best if we do indeed end this here.

 

[dappa]

I think they should of added a scene where you can see how seifer got back to being a regular guy again.

 

[FantasyFanatic]

I think they should of added a scene where you can see how seifer got back to being a regular guy again.

you're right, we never really knew what happened to that guy to make him a decent person again.

I like the fact, like in most FF games, that Squall was far from perfect, you know? Finally games come along that people can actually relate to...in a way...Cloud was also a good example of this. I also like the Junction system...It was a lot more customizable than other ff games and diffucult to get the hang of properly. Great stuff.

 

[Zeromus_X]

Not to start the argument up again, but I do have a comment on Ultimecia's motivation. She states while possessing Edea during her speech to the citizens of Deling City (near the end of disc one) of how Sorceresses have been persecuted throughout history. That coupled with the fact of SeeDs persecuting her across time would indeed cause her to get pretty irritated and decide to end it all. Not much of a better excuse to go all nihilistic than many of the other Final Fantasy villains, but she isn't without depth. Of course, this also introduces some other plot holes, but FFVIII isn't really without those, as can be noticed.

That's all.

 

[ThroneofDravaris]

I've heard this brought up before and while it makes sense it is still just a theory. The lines that Ultimecia speaks aren't enough to determine whether perceution had any direct effect on her, or her motivation to compress time.

 

[Zeromus_X]

That's true.

 

[Slider]

Not to start the argument up again, but I do have a comment on Ultimecia's motivation. She states while possessing Edea during her speech to the citizens of Deling City (near the end of disc one) of how Sorceresses have been persecuted throughout history. That coupled with the fact of SeeDs persecuting her across time would indeed cause her to get pretty irritated and decide to end it all. Not much of a better excuse to go all nihilistic than many of the other Final Fantasy villains, but she isn't without depth. Of course, this also introduces some other plot holes, but FFVIII isn't really without those, as can be noticed.

That's all.

Doubted,
But still makes a very good point, her hatred for SeeD is obvious but maybe because she knew they'll stand in her way, I'm not sure!

 

[Yggdrasill]

One of my main dislikes about FFVIII is that it was so overly easy, even more so than FFIX.
The abusable Limit-break system and the fact that it's possible to take off 2000 or more damage by the end of disc-1 just makes me feel like the game has no challenge.

 

[Zeromus_X]

Doubted,
But still makes a very good point, her hatred for SeeD is obvious but maybe because she knew they'll stand in her way, I'm not sure!

She also wants to 'absorb the power of all Sorceresses across time' (according to Final Ultimecia's Scan), but there doesn't seem to be any reason for that either, unless she's going through her Kefka phase.

 

[ave]

likes= story , gfs, ending
dislikes= The Junction System, the random battles, the way rajin(sp?) says yaknow to much